[00:00:00] Kara Swisher:
Persistence is a real quality of both an entrepreneur and a reporter. Persistence, you know, persistence, persistence, persistence, and an ability not to be pushed back if you think you are correct.
[00:01:47] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective.
I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
My guest today is Kara Swisher. She's widely considered the most influential and most feared journalist in tech. I know from experience having been grilled on her podcast on and Pivot.
[00:02:17] Kara Swisher:
I try to like be straightforward with people like when I'm coming at them. I think that helps, which is why people come back.
[00:02:23] Adam Grant:
This time I got to ask the questions. She came to the Authors@Wharton series for a live discussion of her new book, Burn Book: A Tech Love Story.
Kara Swisher, welcome to Wharton.
[00:02:40] Kara Swisher:
Hi.
[00:02:41] Adam Grant:
All right. First thing I wanna say is you remind me of both of my grandfathers.
[00:02:44] Kara Swisher:
Oh, wow. Okay. We're gonna go there. Okay.
[00:02:46] Adam Grant:
Which, which is not I, I just realized how weird that sounds.
[00:02:50] Kara Swisher:
Yes, it does.
[00:02:51] Adam Grant:
Both, both of them, Jay and Paul, were endearingly grumpy.
[00:02:55] Kara Swisher:
Ah, interesting. Okay.
Thank you. I guess.
[00:02:58] Adam Grant:
Well, do, do you think that's a fair description of you?
[00:03:00] Kara Swisher:
No, I do not. But…
[00:03:02] Adam Grant:
But, you're demonstrating it right now?
[00:03:03] Kara Swisher:
No, but it's not grumpy. Why is the word grumpy? You're using…
[00:03:05] Adam Grant:
Maybe endearingly gruff.
[00:03:06] Kara Swisher:
Gruff. Why is that the word you're using?
[00:03:08] Adam Grant:
I think your default is critical and disagreeable and…
[00:03:11] Kara Swisher:
No. Why is it disagreeable? I don't agree.
[00:03:14] Adam Grant:
Case and point. I rest my case, your honor.
[00:03:15] Kara Swisher:
It’s not disagreeable. It's, it's…
[00:03:17] Adam Grant:
Challenging?
[00:03:18] Kara Swisher:
No, I…
[00:03:19] Adam Grant:
Feisty. How about feisty?
[00:03:20] Kara Swisher:
That's fine if you need to do that. Um, but I would say I am, like, you could possibly compare me to Larry David, but he started it, right? He started it. I'm, I'm skeptical, I would say and also uh, curious. I definitely am curiously skeptical. That's how I would…
[00:03:36] Adam Grant:
What I appreciate about it and what reminded me of, of my childhood is I never have to question where I stand with you. Or wonder whether you’re being…
[00:03:41] Kara Swisher:
Right. So that’s called, used to be called honest, but go ahead. Go ahead.
[00:03:45] Adam Grant:
Yeah. But, sometimes you're willing to buck social norms and politeness expectations in order to be honest.
[00:03:50] Kara Swisher:
Which, which is dishonest. That's, you know, like…
[00:03:54] Adam Grant:
Agreed.
[00:03:55] Kara Swisher:
You look great. Like, that kind of thing. You know, by the way, you look great.
[00:04:00] Adam Grant:
Yeah. Now, now I'm never gonna believe a thing you say.
[00:04:02] Kara Swisher:
You actually do! I’m admiring this soft thing you're wearing.
[00:04:04] Adam Grant:
I'm just gonna leave that right there.
[00:04:05] Kara Swisher:
But, what's interesting is if you go to people, sometimes I get oh, you're mean.
I'm like, where, where was, I mean, precisely. And, they can't find it. Right? Because the, the default with women is if they're straightforward, they're mean, or they're a bitch, really. It works for me and that's what I'm like. And, I think most people, if you happen to be shy, be that way. If you happen to be this, be that way. But, it's better if you're true to what you're like instead of pretending 'cause I think it makes you sick in a weird way.
I remember being closeted for a brief time in the before times. You really had to be. And, I really hated that. I really disliked that and I, it prevented me from doing a lot of things.
And, I remember promising once I came out that I wouldn't do that again in my life. So.
[00:04:43] Adam Grant:
It's hard to imagine you putting on what Pat Hewlin and her colleagues would call it facade of conformity.
[00:04:49] Kara Swisher:
I think it was dead obvious to most people, but it wasn't said. I wanted to join the military and I couldn't.
The first part was 'cause it act, who actually got kicked out and jailed and all that stuff. And, then the second part was don't ask, don't tell, which was under Bill Clinton. People don't realize that he did that. I was like, I like to ask and I liked to tell. This is gonna be an issue for me. And, I couldn't do something that I really wanted to do.
I very much wanted to join the military.
[00:05:11] Adam Grant:
Well, I'm also glad you didn't.
[00:05:13] Kara Swisher:
I'm, I know. I…
[00:05:14] Adam Grant:
I feel like some of your talents would not have been put to good use.
[00:05:15] Kara Swisher:
No, I would be an excellent admiral right now, and we would be safer for it. Let me just say, so. I would be, I would've done great.
[00:05:22] Adam Grant:
Well, okay, so.
[00:05:22] Kara Swisher:
If you watch Top Gun, I would've been great.
[00:05:26] Adam Grant:
A hundred percent realistic.
[00:05:27] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:05:28] Adam Grant:
I wanna know why this works for you, because as you just alluded to, the evidence for backlash against assertive, straightforward women is extensive.
[00:05:36] Kara Swisher:
Extensive.
[00:05:37] Adam Grant:
So, what's different about the way you do it?
[00:05:39] Kara Swisher:
I think about that a lot. A, a part of it is being a lesbian, they kind of expect it.
Like, oh, where's your hammer? Oh, great. That kind of thing. And, and I think sometimes, especially 'cause in, in this book and where I am covering is a lot of straight white men, right? They're more comfortable with me than other people. And, I have aggressive tendencies.
[00:05:56] Adam Grant:
I hadn’t noticed.
[00:05:57] Kara Swisher:
Entrepreneurial tendencies. Right? Like, they did. Now, what happens often, I was with this bunch of venture capitalists and, you know, we were at an event and they were starting to look at a woman. They're, they're starting to talk about her like, ooh, nice boobs, essentially. And, they're like, Kara, what do you think? I go, still a feminist.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I don't talk about women that way. I clocked that very clearly. They thought I was one of them.
[00:06:18] Adam Grant:
It's such an interesting observation. It reminds me of some work that Ashleigh Rosette and her colleagues did where essentially what they show is that if you belong to two clashing, in their work it's gender and, and race categories, that have different stereotypes, people don't know which stereotypes to apply.
[00:06:32] Kara Swisher:
Right. Yeah.
[00:06:33] Adam Grant:
And, so they give you the latitude. You could be feminine or you could be masculine.
[00:06:35] Kara Swisher:
Right. Right.
[00:06:35] Adam Grant:
Without getting judged harshly.
[00:06:37] Kara Swisher:
I got one, uncommonly confident and I was like, it's not uncommon actually, they, but they perceive it as such that I don't.
[00:06:44] Adam Grant:
What's uncommon is that you express it. I think this is, in some cases people mistaken you for one of the tech bros that you cover.
[00:06:49] Kara Swisher:
Sometimes.
[00:06:50] Adam Grant:
And, they, they think it's a signal of arrogance or narcissism, and it's especially uncommon to hear a woman do it.
[00:06:54] Kara Swisher:
Yes, exactly. You said there's a difference there. I'm very open to other points of view and I'm open to disagreement.
Intelligent disagreement.
[00:07:01] Adam Grant:
I have an agenda for today.
[00:07:02] Kara Swisher:
Okay, let's go.
[00:07:03] Adam Grant:
I'm not attached to it, but I thought we should talk about your personal story a little bit. We've done some of that, but there's more to do. I wanted to get you to riff on some of my favorite insights from Burn Book.
[00:07:13] Kara Swisher:
Okay.
[00:07:13] Adam Grant:
One of the things that jumped out at me right away in the book is just how early and how intensely you were enacting this commitment to be honest.
[00:07:22] Kara Swisher:
Yes.
[00:07:23] Adam Grant:
Uh, so tell us about your call to the Washington Post.
[00:07:24] Kara Swisher:
Oh, I loved the Washington Post. I really did. I revered it and I was a Georgetown student and I worked for the student newspaper. It was a great newspaper, right? Ben Bradlee was running and it was so legendary, and I covered something they did, which was a visit to campus by a really heinous El Salvadoran and Salvadoran General and the, I wrote a piece about it 'cause I was very invested. It was happening there, the murders and everything else. And, they wrote a piece and it was full of errors and it made me mad because I was like, wow. They did a shoddy job. And, so I called them and I started to complain and I managed to get the metro editor, and I started to harangue him essentially.
I was like, this is terrible. This is shoddy. You need to have better standards. Like, how dare you do this, that you're my Washington Post? How dare you? And, he said, “Why don't you come down here and say that to my face?” I said, “I absolutely shall.” And, so I got on the bus and I continued my harangue against him in person.
And, he was so amused by me. You could tell that he's like, I'm gonna hire you. And, I was like, good idea 'cause I'll do a much better job. Thank god I'm here to save you. And, I became a stringer from the university and actually it was a good idea 'cause I knew the university so I would do a better job.
[00:08:33] Adam Grant:
Well, I, I think it was incredible foreshadowing.
[00:08:35] Kara Swisher:
Yes, it was.
[00:08:35] Adam Grant:
Who you were gonna become.
[00:08:36] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:08:37] Adam Grant:
Okay, so then the next time when you had to flex that muscle, you had a misogynistic, awful boss.
[00:08:42] Kara Swisher:
Yes, yes, indeed. Like many of them.
[00:08:43] Adam Grant:
Tell us what happened there.
[00:08:44] Kara Swisher:
So, I worked for a guy named John McLaughlin, and he had a show called The McLaughlin Group.
It was a bunch of people left and right reporters, and they would debate the issues of the day, like issue one on a scale of one to 10, one being nuclear Armageddon, that kind of stuff. And, he was very dramatic and performative, which was interesting to me. And, he was a very big figure in the Reagan administration because he has had power. The show had power.
I wrote his column, which he wrote in the National Review, which I thought was very funny 'cause I was very liberal. It was an interesting thing to ghost write his column and just was good. I was 23, 24 maybe, and he was a sexual harasser of a typical, classic sort, like chase people around desks. Give me a kiss, honey, that kind of thing.
He was also abusive in general, like to staff. He would line people up by height and make them look for dust balls under the couch, which was like, okay, like it was sort of weird Captain Queeg, kind of, behavior.
And, we went to the chief of staff, and this is, we were young women and this woman, I'll never forget this, said, “Surely you must be wrong.
You must be lying.” Now, this was pre Anita Hill. This is business as usual in Washington. And, we were like, no, we're not wrong. And, so we quit. We quit. This poor woman had, was really badly affected by it. You could see it. She lost her confidence in a lot of ways and I was just pissed. I was like, how dare he think you can grab this woman?
A year later he did it to someone else and I was called to testify against him in this lawsuit and I was deposed and they did the typical thing. You're a lesbian. You hate men. And, I would answer, no, I like men. I don't have to sleep with them. So, she settled, which was a disappointment for me. I wanted this to go to court.
And, then when the Washington Post came to write a piece about it. The writer, his name was Eric Alterman, came to me and he said, “I'd like to talk to you about what happened, and you can go off the record.” And, I said, “I don't wanna go off the record. Why would I go off the record. If I don't use my name, no one's gonna believe it, right?
It's gonna be sources said, and that's not as powerful.” And, my feeling was, and I expressed it to him when he was being so abusive, I said, “Someday you're just gonna be wheeling around a wheelchair eaten applesauce and I'm gonna be really powerful. That's where this is going.” And, he was like, ah [mimicking laughter]. He loved that.
I was like, okay, sir, but that's how it's going down for you because I'm young and fast and you're getting slower by the minute. And, so, and he thought that was hysterical. He's a funny guy, terrible, heinous person. I'm glad he is dead. But, um, so he, um. I do, I, I, I wish I'm happy some people are dead. I ran into him at a party.
I was working for the Washington Post by this time, and he came up to me and he said, he goes, “Guys wish in a town that stabs you in the back. You stab me in the front,” which I thought was very funny. And I said, “Anytime you son of a bitch.” And, he went, “Excellent.” And, I went, “Fantastic. I hope I never see you again.”
And, that was the last time I saw him and he's dead. So, there you have. And, then the woman, the chief of staff who said, we must be lying, came up to me to party and said, “Do you remember me?” I said, “Oh, yes I do.” And, she said, “I'm really sorry for what I did then. Will you forgive me?” I said, “I absolutely not. We were two young girls and you knew it was true what we were saying.
How dare you?” I said, “I'm not going to if you don't mind.” And, she's like, oh, like she expected me to go. Yes, of course. I was like, no. You don't get off on this one. It was a lesson, and so when Clarence Thomas happened, I knew just what was going on there. You knew just what was happening. It happened in the post newsroom with Juan Williams too, similar.
[00:11:56] Adam Grant:
I think it's an amazing story of your courage. Someone with that level of power could give you a horrible reference, could get you blackballed out of jobs, could be. I mean…
[00:12:04] Kara Swisher:
That takes a lot of effort and I wasn't a conservative. I was in the Republican party, so I didn't see that, I, I made a calculation.
[00:12:10] Adam Grant:
I, I think
[00:12:10] Kara Swisher:
I still would've done it.
[00:12:11] Adam Grant:
It's what's also unusual though, is seems like a, a strangely cheerful tyrant. It was like, good job ruining my career.
[00:12:18] Kara Swisher:
Right. But, I didn't ruin his career. That's the thing. There's no winning until the end. Right? And, in fact, there's no winning even then. Terrible people can prevail.
And, I didn't mind that. I just was gonna do my part to make sure people understood what he was doing. I really do believe in, in Christiane Amanpour, who I, I'm a huge fan of, and she's a friend of mine, which is her truthful, not neutral kind of stance, which she just articulated so beautifully. But, that's sort of been my motto. That kind of thing.
[00:12:46] Adam Grant:
I, I think about that every time somebody says we need to hear both, both sides of the story, I'm like, well, yeah. We need to hear…
[00:12:53] Kara Swisher:
Both truthful sides.
[00:12:53] Adam Grant:
Exactly. And, weigh the side with more evidence, more heavily.
[00:12:55] Kara Swisher:
Yes, exactly. I think it's a really great way to go through the world as a person, and I think it's a good way to be a journalist, I think.
[00:13:03] Adam Grant:
I wanna talk about some of the aha moments that I had while I was reading this book.
[00:13:07] Kara Swisher:
Okay.
[00:13:08] Adam Grant:
You had a really early impression take on the lack of fancy offices.
[00:13:12] Kara Swisher:
Yes, I did.
[00:13:13] Adam Grant:
And dress codes.
[00:13:13] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:13:14] Adam Grant:
And, I think a lot of people took that as a signal that this was an a new and humble group of people.
[00:13:19] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:13:19] Adam Grant:
Who didn't care about status.
[00:13:21] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:13:21] Adam Grant:
And you didn't think so?
[00:13:22] Kara Swisher:
No, I thought it was so performative and I did one story I didn't, and I had forgotten I did it. So, I guess I really did think this at the time, which was they had all these sayings when you'd go visit them, like, we're all the same people.
We're all equal here. And, I was like, well, why do you have stock that gives you full control of everything and nobody else control. I'd covered retail before, I'd covered a bunch of companies and I never heard out of the mouth of say, a Wall Street person, we're here to build community. They're here to make money.
Like, I got it. Like, I'm good with that. I'm good with that. But, they were very much in need of having you think they were good people to a point that was ridiculous which is why the first line of the book was, “So, it was capitalism after all,” because it was such bullsh*t that it wasn't from the very beginning.
They, they weren't here to help us. They were here to help themselves. Which again, that's fine as long as we establish the rules at the beginning.
[00:14:10] Adam Grant:
Can't it be both?
[00:14:12] Kara Swisher:
It can, but they spent a lot of time doing damage and pretending they didn't do it, and continue to this day. When someone tells you something over and over again, I think it's a little suspect.
I'm a really nice person. I'm not a bitch. I'm like, bitch, like. You know what I mean?
[00:14:26] Adam Grant:
Who are you trying to convince me or yourself?
[00:14:27] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:14:28] Adam Grant:
It's almost as if in Silicon Valley looking like you don't care about status symbols is itself a sign of status?
[00:14:34] Kara Swisher:
Yes, of course. Yeah.
[00:14:35] Adam Grant:
How did that come to be?
[00:14:36] Kara Swisher:
I guess it's more comfortable clothes.
They like soft pants, but okay. You know, but they're expensive. They get so insulated by wealth. Wealth really is, is a mind f*ck. It really is, not for everybody, by the way, but for a lot of people who don't have stronger characters, it, it, it, it creates a lot of enablers and creates a lot of comfort. And, then you don't talk to regular people, like, and then you think you are a populace.
That's my favorite part is that let's get the man. I'm like, you are the man.
[00:15:04] Adam Grant:
Another point I found really thought provoking in the book was your twist on the Edison quote. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard this quote in not just tech companies, any company that's trying to make innovate.
[00:15:14] Kara Swisher:
Yeah, Yeah.
[00:15:16] Adam Grant:
They're like, ah, I didn't fail.
I just found 10,000 ways that didn't work.
[00:15:18] Kara Swisher:
Yeah, they love that quote. It's a very.
[00:15:19] Adam Grant:
You’re not such a fan.
[00:15:20] Kara Swisher:
I'm not a fan of that quote. There are ways to fail and they failed many times. Again, it's a suspension of actual truth in order to get somewhere, and adults in tech did say that, like when Apple did a social network called Ping, which you don't remember 'cause it was terrible.
And, when Steve came out and said, what'd you think? I'm like, I think it sucks. Like, just right from the get go it sucks. And, he went, well it does, doesn't it? And, I was like, it does. Like, he could recognize that and that's 'cause he was an adult. There's a lot of people you can have discussions with where they don't take it as a personal front when you don't agree with them.
Other people not so much. It has to be, it wasn't a failure, it was a victory really hidden in a failure. And, I'm like, how about it was just a failure.
[00:16:00] Adam Grant:
I've long thought that self-justification is maybe the cousin of self-deception.
[00:16:04] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:16:05] Adam Grant:
Uh, they work together.
[00:16:07] Kara Swisher:
But, you need some of that. Right?
[00:16:09] Adam Grant:
Oh. A ton.
[00:16:09] Kara Swisher:
Don't you think? You need a little bit of suspension of disbelieve.
[00:16:12] Adam Grant:
A little bit. Yeah. But, let's then do the post-mortem.
[00:16:15] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:16:15] Adam Grant:
Ideally, actually we do the pre-mortem.
[00:16:16] Kara Swisher:
Right. Oh.
[00:16:17] Adam Grant:
And, say what are all the ways this could fail?
[00:16:19] Kara Swisher:
Correct.
[00:16:19] Adam Grant:
Let's try to prevent those.
[00:16:20] Kara Swisher:
Yeah. Yeah. But, a lot of people don't do that and they can't entertain failure as anything that's useful.
Right? For some reason they call it pivot, which is the name of my podcast. That's the, it's a joke name.
[00:16:32] Adam Grant:
Ironically.
[00:16:32] Kara Swisher:
No, we named it 'cause of that we're making fun of them secretly.
[00:16:35] Adam Grant:
The other thing you point out that I think is problematic, I'm gonna quote you on this, you said, “When you say you didn't fail, you just found ways that didn't work.
That leaves out a lot about who's responsible and real people get hurt.”
[00:16:46] Kara Swisher:
Right. And, they don't take responsibility and they continue not to take responsibility 'cause it couldn't be them because they've given us this gift to the world, which by the way, they borrowed from the American taxpayers, but they never think that they did things on the shoulders of other people.
And, that's weird. I find that weird and immature and they have grievances when they're the luckiest people in the world where it's like, you know, I am a victim. I am getting, you know, hit jobs, this and that when you're just asking them a normal question.
[00:17:12] Adam Grant:
Well, this goes to our first would be fight, your ratio.
[00:17:16] Kara Swisher:
I do let people off with a prick to productivity ratio. I, I was doing an event with Ted Sarandos in Los Angeles, and he was like, Steve could be a jerk. He yelled at us once and I said, did he call you a moron? Did he make an a, a remark about you personally? He goes, no. He was mad about the color of the Netscape, of the Netflix button.
He didn't like the red. He thought the red was terrible, and he yelled us about the red. I'm like. Fair game. I don't care if he didn't like the red. I don't mind that kind of stuff when it's work, when it's product. People get very passionate about product. When you move into really, that you have to demean groups of people in order to elevate yourself, that's different to me. I think I, I can get very passionate about my products, like what I wanna make and what I wanna do, and I try to be a little nicer than that, but I definitely get what I want, right? I get what I, when I wanna do it.
[00:18:04] Adam Grant:
I see your case for tolerating it more if it's mission related.
[00:18:08] Kara Swisher:
There's a line that everybody knows gets crossed when it gets into personal, like you stupid moron you, that kind of stuff I don't think is at all cool.
[00:18:18] Adam Grant:
Yeah. So, you're okay with someone saying, this sucks, you just don't wanna hear you, you suck.
[00:18:22] Kara Swisher:
You suck. That's correct.
[00:18:23] Adam Grant:
I was surprised to read that you don't like the phrase speak truth to power.
[00:18:27] Kara Swisher:
I don't.
[00:18:28] Adam Grant:
I, I completely disagree. Tell me why.
[00:18:30] Kara Swisher:
Because I think it's just a trope now. It's, I liked it before it got used too much. I think it's overused. It's, it's sort of a catchall phrase when you're not really speaking truth to power. So, I don't think it's useful anymore. I think there's lots of other ways to express it.
[00:18:44] Adam Grant:
That I find more compelling than something else you wrote about, which is, you said you think, it assumes that power is bad.
[00:18:49] Kara Swisher:
I don't think all power is bad. I think it can become bad. I know that that's the second one, you get to the trope, which is all power corrupts.
[00:18:55] Adam Grant:
Corrupts.
[00:18:56] Kara Swisher:
Maybe some of it does.
Some of it I've seen used really well.
[00:18:59] Adam Grant:
Wholeheartedly to add a little nuance.
[00:19:01] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:19:01] Adam Grant:
I don't think speak truth to power assumes power is bad. I think it assumes that power is deaf and blind.
[00:19:07] Kara Swisher:
I don't think that. I've had lots of really interesting discussions with very powerful people that are listening, that do listen.
[00:19:12] Adam Grant:
Without question.
[00:19:14] Kara Swisher:
Yes.
[00:19:15] Adam Grant:
But, I think you would be the first to grant that. The more powerful you become, the harder it is to get people, to be honest with you.
[00:19:20] Kara Swisher:
Yeah, that is true. But, I think some people do seek it out. Not everybody, but, and it always surprises me, and there is a point where you don't wanna hear it anymore because you get too much incoming.
I mean, one of the funniest fights I had was with Barack Obama. I didn't agree with him on encryption. Right? And, he's so used to being agreed with 'cause everyone loves him, right? And, I thought he was completely wrong about encryption and what way he shifted and we were in an interview and before we, we sat down, we were knee to knee in my red chairs.
And, I said, “Listen, they cut 10 minutes from my thing here. But, here's the deal. You tend to talk in paragraphs and you never stop talking 'cause you know, I'm sure you're in a room with people and they're like, the president gets to talk and nobody talks back at you. But, I'm gonna have to interrupt you now a lot more than you're used to 'cause I know you're not used to it 'cause I can see by the way you talk, but you need to be interrupted and it's gonna be hard for you 'cause you haven't done it in years. Like, you don't carry money anymore. But, I'm gonna interrupt you and so get ready for it.” And, he looked at me, he goes, “I heard you're obnoxious.”
I said, “Yes, I am.” And, then we started the interview.
[00:20:16] Adam Grant:
You want the person who thinks in paragraphs but talks in sound bites, sometimes.
[00:20:20] Kara Swisher:
No, I don't want sound bites. He literally never stops talking. I'm sorry, he still doesn't do it. Like, we had lunch recently and I was like, oh my god, stop talking. You're not the president anymore.
[00:20:28] Adam Grant:
And, this is one of the things that I, I think…
[00:20:30] Kara Swisher:
Yeah. Yeah, sure!
[00:20:31] Adam Grant:
Interesting about what people often don't see you do behind the scenes.
[00:20:33] Kara Swisher:
Oh, I do.
[00:20:33] Adam Grant:
Which is you're explaining, hey, like I'm not trying to attack you or make you feel bad. I'm trying to make this more interesting.
[00:20:39] Kara Swisher:
Right.
[00:20:39] Adam Grant:
I'm trying to surface areas attention. Right. Yeah.
[00:20:40] Kara Swisher:
In that case, one of the things I do do is I tend to ask the hardest, harder questions at the top 'cause they're waiting for them. Like, when I did John Stewart, I, I was like, I think you may have become irrelevant and let's talk about that. And, he said, oh my god. And, I said, what? And he goes, you know, a lot of people do think that.
And, then he gave an amazing answer about it.
[00:20:59] Adam Grant:
So, I have to tell you. I don't think there are a lot of burns in this book.
[00:21:02] Kara Swisher:
Really? Interesting.
[00:21:03] Adam Grant:
I, I was picturing mean girls.
[00:21:05] Kara Swisher:
Oh.
[00:21:05] Adam Grant:
Shock value comments.
[00:21:07] Kara Swisher:
Yeah. But, that’s the…
[00:21:07] Adam Grant:
But, I think you're fair to people.
[00:21:09] Kara Swisher:
That's correct. That's the whole point. I am fair. I think one of the things that always happens when I interview people is they start with the you're mean.
And, I'm like, where, where am I mean, I think I'm fair and tough on people. I think this is my take. And, one of the interesting things when I get reviews is they, everyone always writes the book they wanted me to write. And, I'm like, f*ck you. I wrote the book I wanted to write.
[00:21:29] Adam Grant:
There are a few people that.
[00:21:30] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:21:31] Adam Grant:
You're tougher on than I would've been and, few people you're nicer to than I would've been.
[00:21:33] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:21:33] Adam Grant:
One that surprised me in how harsh you were was Jeff Bezos.
[00:21:36] Kara Swisher:
Harsh?
[00:21:37] Adam Grant:
Uh, yes. Well, you, I wanna, I wanna have you elaborate on this, but you said that your first thought about him when you met him was feral. You also said, I had no doubt that Jeff Bezos would eat my face off if that's what he needed to do to get ahead.
[00:21:49] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:21:50] Adam Grant:
That's a strong statement.
[00:21:52] Kara Swisher:
I don't think so. I, I, you…
[00:21:53] Adam Grant:
Eat your face off!
[00:21:54] Kara Swisher:
Well, he was feral. He was afraid.
[00:21:54] Adam Grant:
I mean, like a little doubt for that.
[00:21:58] Kara Swisher:
He's a tough son of a bitch. I think he would like that characterization of him. He's not a nice guy in business, at least. Feral is not necessarily bad. And, you know what? I, it was such a joy to go up to Seattle and see that.
I was like, thank you because all these, all these tech people in their comfortable cat and comfortable fleece, they were sharks dressed in fleece.
He was just a shark. And, I was like, thank you. I know who you are. And, I, I appreciated that and I liked him for that. Like, he did not hide. He didn't pretend, and he didn't create a culture there that pretended.
[00:23:03] Adam Grant:
All right. Let's go to the lightning round.
[00:23:05] Kara Swisher:
Okay.
[00:23:05] Adam Grant:
Worst career advice you've ever gotten?
[00:23:07] Kara Swisher:
Get in line. I don't get in line. I think sometimes you need to be trained. I think a lot of people think they can jump ahead without training. I do believe in training and mentorship, so.
[00:23:17] Adam Grant:
Who is your dream Pivot Co-host during Scott-free August?
[00:23:20] Kara Swisher:
Oh, I'd like 'em all.
[00:23:22] Adam Grant:
That you haven't had.
[00:23:23] Kara Swisher:
Oh.
[00:23:24] Adam Grant:
That you want.
[00:23:25] Kara Swisher:
Taylor Swift. Obviously, she's a kit. Speaking of killer business people, man, she would like, she would leave you naked without clothes if she needed to and I like it and I'm down for it. I'm down. I'm good with it.
[00:23:43] Adam Grant:
Okay, so Taylor Swift for co-host. My uh nominee was gonna be Sam Altman.
[00:23:47] Kara Swisher:
Oh, Sam was good. He and I were good.
[00:23:48] Adam Grant:
He was unbelievably good.
[00:23:50] Kara Swisher:
One of the things he did at that interview that I just did in um, San Francisco was I thought we'd be talking about AI. And, he goes, “You know, you read a lot about your father in this book and, um, you don't mention your mother at all except one slightly negative thing.
And, what's with that?” That's how he said it. And I was like, oh man, he's good. And, he goes. “I really think there's something there.” And, I said, and my brother was in the audience and he yells, “Run Kara.” And, I said, “That's my next book.” And, it is indeed.
[00:24:17] Adam Grant:
From what I've heard, he got closer than anyone else.
[00:24:18] Kara Swisher:
Absolutely.
[00:24:18] Adam Grant:
Being like you.
[00:24:20] Kara Swisher:
Yes, exactly.
[00:24:20] Adam Grant:
As the interviewer.
[00:24:21] Kara Swisher:
Exactly.
[00:24:21] Adam Grant:
Who is your dream guest that you've never gotten?
[00:24:23] Kara Swisher:
Taylor Swift with Dolly Parton and only talk about business because I think they're both killer entrepreneurs and really smart. I don't wanna talk about boyfriends and I don't wanna talk about Tennessee and mandolins.
I don't care.
[00:24:35] Adam Grant:
What's a personal belief you held that changed based on your career experience?
[00:24:40] Kara Swisher:
I used to think things were a lot more simple, and I think I've gotten better at understanding complexity.
[00:24:46] Adam Grant:
What's something you're thi-rethinking right now?
[00:24:49] Kara Swisher:
Television, cable television. I think everyone's against it.
[00:24:52] Adam Grant:
The existence of it?
[00:24:54] Kara Swisher:
No, I think it's just, everyone's like, it's over. I'm like, it's not over. It's not. There is a worldwide global network, television network, for example, that's why I signed a deal with CNN. Everyone was like, what's she doing? I'm like, well, you'll see, won't you? Like, Podcasting was the same thing.
Everyone was like, what's she doing? I'm like, you'll see. So, whatever. None of your business.
[00:25:11] Adam Grant:
Who is the most underrated person in Silicon Valley?
[00:25:13] Kara Swisher:
Oh, that's a good question.
[00:25:15] Adam Grant:
I wrote it myself.
[00:25:16] Kara Swisher:
Dr. Fei-Fei Lee. She was at the beginning of AI, this new AI stuff doesn't get the credit she deserves. She written a great book and just a wonderful new, a nuanced person, which is so rare.
[00:25:28] Adam Grant:
Also, way ahead of the curve on AI safety.
[00:25:29] Kara Swisher:
Way, way, way. And, she's right, a human centered AI. I just think she's such an important, I, I've urged them to put her on the board of OpenAI.
[00:25:37] Adam Grant:
Most interesting tech person that we haven't heard of.
[00:25:40] Kara Swisher:
You know the guy I wrote about many years ago, the real founder of AOL, this guy named Bill von Meister.
[00:25:46] Adam Grant:
Not Steve Case.
[00:25:46] Kara Swisher:
Not Steve Case. He didn't found it. He was a vice president there. He took it into places that's different. But, the founder was this really wonderful creator. He really understood online spaces, named Bill Von Meister, and totally failed and didn't benefit it from any way. I love those stories, who were there first and didn't benefit.
He was just a brilliant thinker on this stuff, and none of which helped him.
[00:26:07] Adam Grant:
Built almost all of social media before we had social media.
[00:26:10] Kara Swisher:
Absolutely. He was thinking around corners.
[00:26:12] Adam Grant:
What's the question you have for me?
[00:26:14] Kara Swisher:
What's the most hyped thing in business that you really would like to get rid of?
[00:26:19] Adam Grant:
This is like choosing my least favorite child.
If I had to pick one right now, it would be in-office work.
[00:26:25] Kara Swisher:
Meaning.
[00:26:25] Adam Grant:
It's an easy one. Meaning everybody has to come in the entire week.
[00:26:28] Kara Swisher:
I disagree with you, but.
[00:26:30] Adam Grant:
Really?
[00:26:30] Kara Swisher:
Yeah. I think there's a lot to be said.
[00:26:32] Adam Grant:
Evidence disagrees with you.
[00:26:32] Kara Swisher:
I understand that, but I think people not, it's like school. If you have kids, it didn't work. It, they, they needed to be together.
[00:26:38] Adam Grant:
I'm just saying a day or two a week from anywhere.
[00:26:40] Kara Swisher:
Okay.
[00:26:40] Adam Grant:
It's the best of both worlds.
[00:26:41] Kara Swisher:
Okay. All right.
[00:26:42] Adam Grant:
The people who can't stomach that, I think, are gonna be obsolete really quickly.
[00:26:45] Kara Swisher:
I've been remote my whole career, which is interesting, but I, but I found that there are some really great things about gathering.
[00:26:52] Adam Grant:
Absolutely. Without question. Before we wrap tonight, let's talk a little bit about the future. How do you balance holding tech accountable with having good relationships with people?
[00:27:01] Kara Swisher:
I think what, what the press did is they were too easy on tech and then, and…
[00:27:06] Adam Grant:
They overcorrected.
[00:27:07] Kara Swisher:
Overcorrected and I think there, it's somewhere in the middle and people don't like that somewhere in the middle for some reason.
There have to be, like calling Mark Zuckerberg a villain. He's not a villain, but he's dangerous at the same time.
[00:27:17] Adam Grant:
A couple people asked about this, which is something I've noticed a lot in Silicon Valley, particularly tech companies run by engineers.
[00:27:24] Kara Swisher:
Yeah.
[00:27:24] Adam Grant:
To not respect non-engineers.
[00:27:26] Kara Swisher:
Yes. That's ridiculous.
[00:27:28] Adam Grant:
What advice do you have for navigating that?
[00:27:29] Kara Swisher:
I'll tell you my own personal advice. My son is a compute. He's taking physics, he's taking calculus, advanced calculus. He's taking computer science. But what I insisted in high school and now is that he takes history courses, ethics courses, phil-. He likes them too, by the way.
I don't think you can be a really good technologist unless you understand history. The better technologists have a wider range of references. Steve Jobs is a very good example. Tim Cook is wide ranging, and so if you don't have a broader education, you have no business making decisions about society, and you've seen it played out over and over again.
[00:28:01] Adam Grant:
What about if you can't force them to take these courses and broaden their horizons? What if you're stuck working in one of those environments?
[00:28:08] Kara Swisher:
Read a book. Read a book?
[00:28:10] Adam Grant:
I, I cannot disagree with that advice. I guess the other journalism thread that came up is how do we save journalism and how do we save journalists, livelihoods?
[00:28:19] Kara Swisher:
It's been happening for a long time. The business models don't mesh up. The, the cost and revenue don't me mess up and they've been keeping the same cost structure, you know, revenue. They just sat there, they, and they continue to sit there and they still do today, creating these structures that are non-economic.
And, now they're relying on the kindness of billionaires, whether it's Jeff Bezos or Laurene Powell Jobs or Mark Benioff. That's not a business plan. It just isn't. So, you see all these really interesting small companies that are very similar to what we did at AllThingsD and then Recode. They're just doing it better.
We were kind of early to the game in that, but you have stuff like a Casey Newton at Platformer who's just two or three employees, but he is making a lot of money, like a lot of money, and has a lot of influence too, by the way, with, on a very small budget. Puck is another example. The information, there's dozens of examples like that that are like Heather Cox Richardson is making bank people like you don't, and she's just…
[00:29:11] Adam Grant:
Dominating substack.
[00:29:11] Kara Swisher:
It's her up in Maine at a desk. That's pretty much it. Is that journalism? It’s something, is something good. And, so I think that these companies have to rethink it beyond a billionaire will save us or we should get public funding because that's not happening in this country.
We're not Britain and it's too partisan, and so they have to rightsize their businesses. I, I, and journalists get mad at me about this as if they're priests. I'm like, it's called the news business, right? Like it's show business and they just haven't changed fast enough. And, in the rule, the new world that's coming, uh, with art, I mean, you think before was hard, next is even harder.
[00:29:48] Adam Grant:
Okay. That's, that's the last topic, AI. What's your biggest fear? What's your biggest fix?
[00:29:52] Kara Swisher:
AI?
[00:29:53] Adam Grant:
Yeah.
[00:29:53] Kara Swisher:
People that are bad people, they're coming and they're here, they're here. Everyone's like, are you scared of AI? Is it gonna kill us? I'm scared of bad people using these tools as weapons, always. Every single technology has been turned into a weapon and this one's a big one, and so bad people doing things, and I could think of 50 things they could do just sitting down. And AI could think of 400 things they could do. And, so I worry about people using these new technologies values, and so I worry about lack of regulation.
We don't have any. We worry about lack of liability. These are things that don't slow innovation. They improve innovation. They do. It's such a lie that technologists tell you is that they need an unfettered landscape to like, honestly, it's like only a child would say that. And, so they need guardrails. And, that's what I worry about.
And, sometimes it'll be the, the stuff that you're not gonna think of. And, if someone said, think of something. And, I said, okay. We tell AI to solve world hunger for us 'cause hunger is bad and it, and without the guardrails or the right instructions, it will kill a billion people too. That's the way you solve hunger, less people and then let's eat them. Like, you can see it. Like, that's the, that's the plot of Soylent Green, by the way. That's what it's gonna do if we don't think about it as human beings and protect humanity in that way. So, that worries me.
[00:31:10] Adam Grant:
And your guardrail solutions are?
[00:31:12] Kara Swisher:
Are regulation. There, there hasn't been any on technology.
[00:31:15] Adam Grant:
Ever.
[00:31:15] Kara Swisher:
Ever. That's because technology moved into the space right when our political system was fracturing. And, so imagine standard oil didn't have trust busters or AT&T didn't have politicians willing to break it up. We wouldn't have cell phones, we wouldn't have all these advanced technologies 'cause that got broken up and created all kinds of innovation. Lack of regulations by our elected officials and all.
And, on this, when, when Mark Zuckerberg appeared before the, the relations committee and Josh Hawley said, turn around and apologize. Parents had pictures of their kids that were hurt by social media doubtlessly due to Facebook and their, the way they built their system, put up the pictures. And, I, I said, turn the pictures around and look at Josh Hawley.
Who in this room could do something about it? Oh, you, you performative son of a bitch. Like, you are the one who can write the rules and cooperate with people. Instead, you're interested in what you could tweet next. You're loathsome on that regard. All these regulators could do something about it, and they don't, you know, they don't, they do nothing and so, I, I, I blame Mark Zuckerberg too, but honestly, he's doing what he's doing.
He's a, he's a capitalist. He's making shareholders happy. But, he did turn around and look at them and in his eyes you could see, what have I done? But, why am I waiting for that guy? Why are we waiting for him to get educated? We have to just say, that's enough and let's pass some laws.
Like let's have a few way ahead of…
[00:32:29] Adam Grant:
Way ups.
[00:32:32] Kara Swisher:
We're way ahead. Let's have a few more mar-margarita investitures here in this country, and with the courage to do something about it, so.
[00:32:39] Adam Grant:
That sounds like an action plan.
[00:32:40] Kara Swisher:
It is. I have four kids. I care about what happens and I want them to do their job. I do, but you know, they're busy doing other things like, you know, whatever they're doing up there.
But, we elected them so.
[00:32:51] Adam Grant:
Well, Kara, I, I will say.
[00:32:53] Kara Swisher:
By the way, we can unelect them. That's the thing. You can't unelect Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, so.
[00:33:00] Adam Grant:
That's true. Well, I, I hate to wrap it here 'cause there's a lot more we can talk about, but let me just end by saying that I want every leader with an important job to have you as a thorn in there.
[00:33:10] Kara Swisher:
Hahaha. But, I'm not burning them enough. No, I'm kidding.
[00:33:13] Adam Grant:
No, I mean, I think, I think you as an irritant is a force for good.
[00:33:16] Kara Swisher:
Irritant is good. It's annoying. That's how you, we get pearls. Uh, Adam, that's how we get pearls.
[00:33:29] Adam Grant:
ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard.
Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown.
Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers.
[00:34:02] Kara Swisher:
My ex-wife was the CTO of America. When you leave the White House, you, the families go in and meet the president. You get the picture, you shake the hand. And, so I walk in and he looks at me. He goes, how did you get in here? And, then my second favorite part is I have a very jolly son, my older son, and he's like, Louis, I hear you're a good cook.
And, when you own a restaurant, can I come? And, Louis like, absolutely, sir. You know, that's great. And, then he turned to my other son who's much more disagreeable and I really enjoy that about him. He goes, “Alex, I hear you're gonna do a startup someday. When I, when you have a company, can I invest in it?” My son goes, “Maybe, we'll see.”
And, I was, and he turns to me and he goes, “That's your kid.” I'm like, yes, he is. Yes, he is. I'm very proud of you for that. I was like, yay, parenting done.
